tonight a cnn special. >> we had a nice conversation, light conversation. >> behind closed doors, a conclave at the white house. the four top leaders of the congress that helped drive us into shutdown meeting with president obama. did they work out their differences? >> the president reiterated one more time tonight that he will

not negotiate. >> my friend, john boehner, i repeat cannot take yes for an answer. >> well, that went well. all sides emerging just as dug in as before. what is the end game here? >> you'd have to ask the group. >> our guest congressman nunez calls his fellow republicans lemmings with suicide vests for their refusal to fund obama care along with the rest of the government. >> i don't understand the strategy. >> this is "shutdown showdown." >> good evening, everyone. i'm jake tapper. welcome to this special half hour of cnn, "shutdown showdown." we're coming to you live tonight from the nation's capitol. the only city in america where you have to work this hard to get absolutely nothing accomplished. we're coming up on 48 hours since the government partially shut down. and if you are a furloughed government worker, do not bother setting your alarm tonight. this mess will not be any closer to a resolution when you wake up. you can be forgiven if you got your hopes up. earlier tonight the four top leaders in congress went to the white house to meet with president obama behind closed

doors. so how did it go? >> the president reiterated one more time tonight that he will not negotiate. we've got divided government. democrats control the white house and the senate, republicans control the house. we sent four different proposals over to our democratic colleagues in the senate. they rejected all of them. >> i thought that they were concerned about the long-term fiscal affairs of this country. and we said we are, too. let's talk about it. my friend, john boehner, i repeat cannot take yes for an answer. >> okay then. a gop congressional source told our own dana bash that the meeting only involved the principals, no staffers. there was no talk of any potential compromises for this specific fight period. the president demanded a clean continuing resolution to reopen the government as soon as possible, complete with funding for obama care. speaker boehner's response, not going to happen. so is it time for a grand

bargain to put the nation's fiscal house in order? there are whispers of that on the hill tonight. but what would that even look like? let's bring in republican congressman devin nunes of california who has been pretty critical of his own party's strategy here and two of cnn's finist, chief political analyst gloria borger and chief political coast dent dana bash. congressman, obviously you're not a supporter of obama care in particular. why would you call your fellow republicans lemmings with suicide vests? what's the issue here? >> thank you for having me on. a few months ago, back in my district and in washington i started hearing this strategy that was laid out that shut down the government, don't fund obama care and don't stop until obama care has ended. and i thought from the beginning that that was really -- couldn't be done. and it's really just a matter of math. >> you don't have the senate and you don't have the white house. >> right. you would need technically, what some of my constituents were saying, we only need five senators. well, as the folks here in

washington know, you need 60 votes just toned debate. it took 60 votes to implement obama care. i just don't think as long as there's a guy named obama in the white house that you're going get rid of obama care without a veto. so assuming you got the 60 votes, assuming president obama vetoed the bill which he would, you then need 67 votes in the united states senate and 290 votes in the house. so it's just a matter of math. it was a silly strategy from the beginning. and this whole lemming issue came up because one of my colleagues who i was having a direct conversation with decided to leak it outside of the room. and so i walked out. and they asked me about it. so that's how it got out public. >> but you said it, right? i mean, lemmings. >> you think it's bad for the republican party? >> yeah, it's crazy. i don't understand the whole point, the whole strategy. most americans don't understand it. but look. i have supported it. i will support our leadership. because part of this problem in this whole group they refer to, this has been ongoing for three

years. where they've continued to block our leadership for three years to get 218 votes. >> the lemming caucus. you're talking about the tea party caucus. >> it's not the tea party caucus. not at all. it's a lemming caucus. it's guys who meet privately. they're always conspiring. it's mostly just about power. and it's just gotten us nowhere. >> but if that's the case, and if they're lemmings, and if you actually understand simple math that you can't get this done, then why not be more aggressive? i mean, i know there's sort of growing number of people like you who want to pass a clean bill to fund the government and just move on. >> a clear majority of the republican party in the houses right? >> it seems that way. so why not put your vote where your mouth is? >> well first of all you have to vote on what's in front of you. >> why not john boehner can put whatever he wants in front of you. >> yeah. so if you want to do that, and start bringing down rules basically is what you're talking about, talking about doing the same thing that got us in this mess in the first place.

so the leadership made a decision to take the position that we are going to take the ted cruz strategy and we are not going to fund the government until we get rid of obama care. >> why do you think boehner did that? his original inclination, back last spring, was we're not going to do that. >> he said in march exactly the votes aren't there. it doesn't make sense. we'll keep voting against obama care but we're not going to shut down the government. >> so why the change of mind? >> because we had the majority of republicans who had went home and gave some indication to their constituent that is there was some magical way to get rid of obama care by not funding the government. that's why this happened. i have a responsibility to tell the truth to my constituents, and that's what i've been doing. >> and again just to reiterate, you would like to repeal obama care. >> well, i mean, i've been one of the leaders on health care. i think that's actually one of the problems in the congress right now, especially with this cruz strategy is that i would

have respect for people if they were coming up with solutions to our nation's health care problems. because if really the problem is debt and people worried about obama care because we're going to go bankrupt and woe have $17 trillion in debt. you guys know all the talking points. but it's true. we have a debt problem. but the debt problem was here before obama care, obama care made it much worse by throwing more people onto medicaid. and medicare is going broke for our seniors. so some of us, myself, senator coburn, paul ryan, senator byrd, we actually put out where every american -- a plan where every american would have health care. every american would have health care. and now all of a sudden people are attacking me for being pro obama care? i don't think so. >> you said you're obviously upset with the strategy, you think that john boehner was forced into this, which let's face it i think he was. candidly, are you supporting john boehner the strategy because if he relents he's toast? >> no. i think it's this. >> honestly you don't think so?

>> for three years we had president bus had problems getting 218 votes. john boehner said we'll take this strategy. you went out for three months, got these votes. we'll implement it. it's fully implemented. >> you can pass this with bipartisan support. if you know that the votes are there with republicans and democrats, why not say to the speaker, put this on the floor. get bipartisan support. have it pass that way and move on. >> because you still have republicans in our caucus who believe that if we continue down this path and we stay firm and we hold tight, that harry reid and president obama are going to relent and we're going to be able to -- >> do you believe that at all? >> absolutely not. i don't believe it. >> let's talk about ted cruz for a second just because you raised him. the house is following a strategy a lot of people feel that senator ted cruz, republican of texas, suggested. because dana and gloria you guys have been doing some reporting. there was a meeting today of republicans in the senate, and a

lot of ted cruz's colleagues i think are even less happy with him than you sound. >> well, they handed it to him. i was told that they were meeting, and that most republican senators i was told by republican source in the room spoke out against him. this is what one source said to me. cruz was completely unapologetic about the ads that he is featured in on the senate conservative fund web site that attack other republicans. that's what they're mad about. he sees himself as the only truly pure are. his colleagues are furious. he has no successful strategy but has managed to generate grassroots support. >> that's a republican senator who told you that? >> right. >> but here's the thing. a republican senator who toll you that anonymously. he wouldn't give his or her name. and this seems to be one of the issues. >> but within this meeting. >> no. but i'm just saying the people in this town, i hear a lot of republicans who are willing to criticize ted cruz. i'm not talking about you

obviously because you just did it on tv but willing to criticize ted cruz but not put their name to it. >> i think you'll see more and more as this goes on. >> you know this. there's a reason for that. the reason they're not willing to put their name to it they don't want to get a primary. he is incredibly powerful and popular. am i wrong? you were just talking about the fact you heard it back home this summer. >> look. i think ted cruz is one of the best politicians that's come around in a long time. he's able to rally the base the he's got a lot of money he's generated much there's a lot of consultants making money off this and lots of tv ads going on. the problem with it is, it's one thing to be good at politics. it's another thing to be not good at strategy. >> why are you not worried about getting primaried? >> well, look. my whole career i've made a career of just being honest with constituents, trying to come up with solutions to america's problems and putting them out there and trying to explain those to my constituents and trying to work on those issues. >> what do you think of this

piecemeal strategy that the house republicans have had, which is refund the government -- >> but go after the parts that we put on tv. >> piece by piece. >> so you're throwing up kids with cancer, veterans affairs, the parks. the world war ii veterans. >> take away all the unpopular cuts. >> you voted for it all. >> now that we have made the jump, set ourselves on fire and made the jump, we are now in the vail of death. we decided to go into the vai valley. we have to run together and stay together in order to fight the onslaught that's coming from the white house. >> interesting our metaphors here. don't you think that seems crazy? >> in the valley of death. >> isn't it interesting you're calling it setting yourself on fire in the valley of death and running on fire in the valley of death voluntarily just to stick together. >> if you don't have 218 votes in the house -- >> but dana keeps saying you do. >> no. if the republican party does not hold 218 votes in the house we

have nothing. and that's what this group, this small group in the house has been blocking us for three years. and i am not going to be like them. >> how many of your fellow house republicans agree with you? >> 200. >> really? i mean, a lot of people have been coming up to you and saying atta boy or i agree with you? >> nobody likes to criticize fellow republicans, especially myself. but this is a case where somebody decided to leak private conversations, and so i was forced to basically come out and defend myself. and tell what you really believe to be the truth. i mean, so what does this do to the republican party? i mean, here you are kind of split open in public, disagreeing. you say you have 200 votes to do something they're not going to do. >> the key was we should have had this fight on the debt ceiling. not on the c.r. not on the appropriations bill. >> not on funding the government. >> not on funding the

government, right. so especially -- even if you were going to do it on funding the government, you don't pick the same day that obama care's rolled out. because one thing that we know about this white house, and we know about harry reid in the senate, is they're going to use everything that we give them, which is they're going to easily say, the reason we're having these problems is because the republicans shut the government down. >> stick around. stay there. nobody go anywhere. we're going to take a very quick break. coming up, if the president made it clear that there will be no negotiating while the government is shut down, where do republicans go from here? we will continue our discussion with congressman nunes coming up next. ♪ [ male announcer ] the parking lot helps by letting us know who's coming. the carts keep everyone on the right track. the power tools introduce themselves. all the bits and bulbs keep themselves stocked. and the doors even handle the checkout

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a standoff with no end in sight. who will blink first and do republicans have a strategy for what comes next?" shutdown showdown" continues right after this. my customers can shop around-- see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and estimates for how much i'll pay.

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welcome back to cnn's special government of the government shutdown. i'm jake tapper. we're almost into day three of the standoff.

good news both sides met at the white house tonight. bad news they seemingly just butted heads. president obama along with his liberal allies in the senate, well, they refuse to fold. they're not playing with house money. they're playing with yours. so does congress have an end game here? do they even know how to end it? let's bring back in republican congressman devin nunes of california and gloria borger and dana bash. interesting quote i wanted to read you, congressman, from your colleague representative marvin stutzman of indiana. he's quoted in the washington examiner talking about the end game saying quote we're not going to be disrespected. we have to get something out of this. and i don't know what that even is. now, you are not congressman stutman so i can't hold you accountable for this. but that is not a very encouraging sign. >> i mean, congressman stutzman is a very good guy and a friend of mine. and i think this is part of the

problem that some of us identified months ago because there was no end game to this strategy. there was no way once you got to shutdown mode and you didn't have the votes, which we never had the votes, then what were you going to do? i think we had the moral high ground to fight on the individual mandate. had we made that case and spent all this money and time and effort saying how come you're giving employers a break and not giving individual a break since obama care is obviously not ready to go primetime. i think we would have had some folks on our side. but instead with all of this politicalization and attacking republicans it's made for with we're at now. >> can i ask you, what is it like on the floor of the house now on the republican side, where you're calling your colleagues lemmings. are there any specific ones that you're talking about? >> so look, first off it's important to be fair here, the democrats are giddy about this behind closed doors. i mean, they think that this is

going to give nancy pelosi back the gavel. they're very cocky, very confident. i assume they're just looking at polling information. and they want to continue this. they want to keep the government shut down as long as they can. they're encouraging our folks to do it. >> you think democrats want to keep government shut down? >> politically absolutely. i mean, they tell me so. >> democratic congressmen have said keep the shutdown going? >> yes. privately, yeah. >> tongue in cheek, right? >> tongue in cheek. but i mean, look. democrats believe in big government. no question. >> right. >> but this is benefitting them politically. >> so can i get back to the republican on your side of the -- like how bad is it? and who are the lemmings that you're talking about? and are you talking to them? >> >> no. there's nothing really to talk about. this is their strategy. >> who's they, though? who is they? >> i mean, look. you have to first look to the people who went against the speaker on the house floor to

start off the congress. that's the first group, right? >> dana would tell us. >> right out of the gate there was -- we needed 218 votes. and there was an attempt there to basically wound the leadership. >> that was a worst coup attempt than was reported at the time. >> here's. why every republican has a chance to run for speaker or for leader of the republican party. and there's a whole set of offices. they never challenged speaker boehner. they never challenge leader cantor. they don't do anything. then they were meeting privately to create this spectacle on the house floor. they never vote for anything. and look, i disagree with leadership a lot. but i don't go out and publicly embarrass our entire conference at the beginning of the conference. and that's what happened back in january. >> to your point about democrats right now, to be fair, if you look at the votes over the past two days since you've started this piecemeal approach, you guys have been united, even

people like you who don't agree with the strategy, you've stuck with your leadership for better or worse. democrats have lost 20, 30 votes on these -- >> although not enough -- >> not enough to put it over. but i want to ask you since we're being so candid and open and honest here at whatever time it is, what's speaker boehner behind the scenes right now as he tries to hold it together. >> and i'll help you out. you only have about 15 second. >> look. speaker boehner, the way you see him in public is exactly how he is in private. he's a good guy. it's sad that a lot of folks have been attacking him when he is right now the leader been voted on unanimously in our conference but folks like to beat him up. and it's just unhelpful. >> congressman, we thank you for your candor this evening and being honest and open with the american people. thank you so much. we'll be right back. stay with us. when you're merging onto u.s. cover your ears...

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that is it for "shutdown showdown." thanks for watching. i'm jake tapper with gloria borger and dana bash. please join me tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. eastern for "the lead." "crossfire" starts right after this. [ male announcer ] research suggests cell health

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tonight on "crossfire" the president and congress start talking. as the government continues to be shut down who do you blame? >> i blame both sides. >> on the left, van jones. on the right, s.e. cupp. in the crossfire, tom perielo and emily miller. who do you blame for the shutdown standoff? speaker boehner or the president? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire". i'm s.e. cupp on the right. >> and i'm van jones on the left. our leaders in congress met with president obama for about an hour tonight. if i had been in the room, my message to the president would have been this.

stand firm. we've already compromised enough. we precompromised our compromises. we gave away single payer already. that's a compromise. we gave away public option. and even with this c.r., we are rolling over and giving republicans 100% of the budget cuts that they want. $70 billion worth. that is a compromise. mr. president, don't cave and don't start giving away any more stuff. stick to what you told cnbc this afternoon. >> during the course of my presidency, i have bent over backwards to work with the republican party. and one thing that i know the american people are tired of, and i have to assume the vast majority of businesses are tired of, is this constant governing from crisis to crisis. so in that sense do we need to break that fever? absolutely. >> amen. >> so van, i get it. you want the president to stand his ground. i think you've got a little ted cruz envy.

i don't blame you. he's been pretty impressive. he's been really taking obama to the mat. and i kind of understand where you're coming from. president obama's leadership on this has been disappointing. now, you want him -- you want him to lurch leftward. i want him to come to the more reasonable center. but we will ask our guests about this tonight. tom perielo with the center for american progress, he supports president obama's position on the shutdown. and washington times senior editor emily miller who supports the house republicans. tom, i have a hunch that president obama is digging in his heels on this fight and the upcoming fight on the debt ceiling because of people like van, who are pressuring him from the left to really take it to these guys, really don't give in, talk tough, stand firm. do you think that's why he's been so reluctant to negotiate? >> i just don't understand the

premise. he's actually given up 100% of the position to the republicans. the c.r. is a republican document. the republicans wanted 988 billion. he said we will give you 100% of what you want on the budget. where do you negotiate after giving people 100% of what they want? >> tom tom tom. >> emily, please educate tom. >> former congressman, first of all the number we're talking about in the c.r. spending levels was negotiated in 2001. this was agreed upon. because i think on all of our sides we agree that $17 trillion is just a little bit high, the debt to have, that we need to start bringing it down, start bringing spending down. it's been stuck at 16.7 because we haven't been borrowing or spending money. >> the deficit has been coming down for a number of reasons including curbing of health care. >> we have a $16.7 trillion debt right now. everyone agrees we need to cut spending. so the president, yes, he's gone

along with the spending levels he agreed to in 2011. beyond that it's been my way or the highway on obama care. >> the sequester numbers, which both sides agree is a terrible idea for poll sand terrible for the economy, but 988 includes that. and the democrats already caved on splitting the defense and nondefense -- >> you make it sound like democrats and president obama have just rolled over. republicans didn't get entitlement reform, tax reform. they asked for a lot and they've gotten very little. >> all those things can continue to be discussed in the context of the budget. >> when? >> a continuing resolution is meant to be a clean document to move the budget forward. it is supposed to be a budget number. nothing prevents this conversation from continuing for an actual budget if the republicans could move forward with the budget from the conference. >> these shutdowns have happened over spending. he even though it's been 17 years. this one isn't about spending. like you said everyone's agreeing to the 2011 levels with the sequester. this is about obama care.

do we fully implement -- >> it's supposed to be a continuing resolution. >> but this is where we are, right? this is our reality. >> right now these current members of congress are in the white house, which i think must be the quietest negotiation that's ever happened. because jay carney said the white house spokesman that obama will not negotiate. he will not negotiate. and then he invites all the congressional leaders to the white house. >> what are they talking about? >> maybe they're like discussing our show? i don't know. or talk about what movies they've seen lately. >> let me just say a couple things here. one, i think we forget that a c.r. is a little tiny tiny bitty thing. the budget is a big thing. and the debt ceiling is a huge thing. we're talking about the c.r., which is a continuing resolution just to keep doors open for two months. and the tea party republicans want us to give away massive concessions over something small. don't you think it's disingenuous on the part of tea party republicans to expect for

us to trade away huge chunks of obama care to keep government open for eight weeks then we're going to be right back in the same situation again eight weeks from now? >> granted we all agree these are c.r. after c.r. the past five years have been ridiculous. how can you have a budget -- look i don't know about the politicians but i think the rest of america wants a budget and a well-thought-out budget and this is ridiculous how it's been operating. what is happening here what you're calling the tea party republicans which is a good deal of them but majority of republicans in the house and about 98% of republicans in the senate say our constituents are telling us they're not ready for obama care. they don't want it implemented. since they are in the minority and the republicans control one half of one-third of the government, all the leverage they have is this c.r. i agree with you it's a tiny little thing but it's all they have. >> it's just not the way it works. we need a budget. we need these guys to do their job. their job right now is to keep the government running. they need to do that with a six-week c.r. then they can go

back to all the games and dr. seuss and everything else they want to do. >> for the first four years under president obama, even first two when democrats controlled everything there was no budget. i love that you now demand a budget. republicans have been demanding budgets for the past four years. it's nice to finally have one. >> you didn't pass a budget you pass a c.r. i think we all agree here it would be great to get a grand bargain, at least a budget. but in the absence of that your job is to pass a c.r. the president agreed to 100% of the republican budget number on the c.r. >> let me tell you what democrats are not agreeing to right now. republicans have offered to reopen slices of the government. to fund veterans services, for example, national parks, a number much of other things. nancy pelosi called this pathetic. here's what harry reid had to say about it today. >> but if you can help one child who has carnes why wouldn't you do it? >> listen. >> one against the other. >> why would we want to do that?

i have 1100 people at dulles air force base that are signature home. they have a few problems of their own. >> i have right here -- this was tweeted by eric cantor. this is a statement from the president's office. it's the threat to veto. the honoring our promise to america's veterans act. the research for life-saving cures act. >> those are really cool names you guys made up for this stuff. >> no, it's terrible optics. this is your party. how do you defend this? >> do you think the optics are hurting the democrats right now on the government shutdown? >> i think this is terrible optics. >> i don't think anyone takes this seriously. the american people are much smarter than this. they don't buy it with the world war ii memorial and other stuff. the republicans are grasping right now. they need to get the c.r. passed. the idea of trying to cherry pick a line it's not going to work. >> the president says we are not going to open the government. >> it's like going street by street saying we're going to get the trash from this street but not this treat.

open this park but not this park. they can't even pass a c.r. and going to start micromanaging in that way? this is not how americans deserve for them to run the government. >> why wouldn't you open one thing at a time? >> if you're the majority leader of the senate and you say can you save one child and you say why should i? talk about optics. >> terrible. terrible optics. that's unconscionable. >> he's going to bet beat up for that. i think we all know that reid cares a lot about kids. one of the things that's so weird to me is that he's now suddenly that republicans care so much about this particular program and yet the budget they voted for have defunded a lot of the program-the ryan budget actually defund almost all the things we're talking about. >> it was dana bash from cnn, it wasn't republicans who asked that question. >> a good question and a bad answer. i don't think anyone will say he handled the question well. let's talk about something in the news now recently. suddenly the republicans are the huge champions of veterans. what are these great cute things

you just named is about veterans. great names for our bills. >> honoring our promise to americans veterans act. >> great branding. if we want to honor our promise to our veterans why didn't we start awhile ago? the ryan budget for instance decimates funding for veterans. right now we have a suicide crisis with our veterans. 21 veterans taking their lives every day. the programs to help that and homelessness are decimated. why are suddenly now republicans concerned about honoring our veterans? they weren't as concerned before? >> republicans have always been a party of national security and party of the military. that is not true that the ryan budget decimated veterans affairs. >> i can give you numbers. >> i agree that ptsd is an enormous problem with our current veterans returning from iraq and the wars. it's something that need to be

dealt with from a health care issue. >> don't you think it's a little hypocritical though when the ryan budget, i can give you numbers, does decimate programs that were to keep veterans off the street, help them. decimated those programs a few months ago and making those votes and now demagoguing the issue. >> the sequester was president obama's idea. the sequester is having a worse effect on defense and veterans than anything this paul ryan budget that has not been implemented has suggested. >> was the sequester actually supposed to be implemented? they love saying -- >> it was agreed upon to be something both sides disliked. now it's the republican c.r. that accepts those sequester numbers, which is bad for defense, particularly in a state like mine of virginia. but this is the republican number. the democratic number is 1056. the republicans are at 988. we've send that number which you yourself have just agreed is bad for our defense and national security. >> no. >> so republicans are winning a fight that is hurting our defense sector and the president is saying if that's what it takes to keep government open.

i think we should be going back to the kind of budget that actually builds the kind of infrastructure and competitiveness that supports our troops that supports science and research. i just got back from china last week. they're not going slow. they're not cutting back on these investments to make themselves competitive. so i think overall we should be moving towards more investment in these areas to make ourselves more competitive. we should be giving our troops the support they need. >> what's wrong with that? >> i hear democrats say investment, and i hear obama. and i just hear money money money money money money. we've gone from a $9 trillion debt to a $17 trillion debt in five years. >> most americans agree we should not raise the debt ceiling without some spending cuts. but before that, i'm sure i don't have to tell you fine folks that the entire house of representatives is up for re-election next year. when we come back, i want you guys to tell me and our viewers why we should keep any of them around. ♪ norfolk southern what's your function? ♪

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welcome back to "crossfire." president obama met with congressional leaders for about an hour today. after it ended speaker boehner complained the president still won't negotiate. in the crossfire tonight, tom perielo who supports president obama's position on the shutdown and washington times editor emily miller who supports the house republicans. tom, congress's approval numbers, luckily this no longer reflects you -- >> thank you. >> you got out. >> just in time. >> but congress's approval numbers are abysmal. we are an international laughingstock. why should we bring any of these

guys back? give us some hope. tell me why i can have a government to believe in. >> well, i will say a lot of members of congress from both parties work their tails off. a lot of them are there for the right reasons. not all of them. they really do believe a lot of the stuff that they say. i think unfortunately you've lost some of of core contingent that believes in getting things done, that beliefs ultimately coming together to solve the country's problems is the main thing. >> would you agree blame on both sides? >> i think it's not quite equal. democrats compromising and giving up things they care about. i will say this going forward, though. if you look at elections for both parties over the last 30 or 50 years, the strengths of the economy and the unemployment rate is the best indicator of how elections are going to do. if we do see some double dip in the economy, if the shutdown or the debt ceiling moves us into a more negative economic environment, not that we've had radically strong growth as of late, that will be bad news for

anyone running for re-election next year. >> i wrote my column in the washington times today they think this shutdown will help republicans in 2014. here's why. because right now, yes, i think the republicans are taking most of the blame for this because they generally do take the blame for things that go wrong in washington and congress does. and president obama is very, very good at not taking blame for anything. he still hasn't taken any responsibility. even though he will not make one change to obama care. >> i know you're going someplace with this. >> anyway, the point of that is that the people don't want obama care. they're seeing their premiums go up. they're not being able to stick with their same insurance companies. plus anyone who tried to log in yesterday couldn't get on even if you tried. to they don't want it fully implemented. so the ted cruzs and the tea party people in the house who really are trying to push the leadership into this position, they're saying we hear you. >> not only that, emily, not just the standing up. i've also said i think in november 2014 no one's going to

remember this week long or two week or three week long shutdown. going to be feeling the effects of obama care. that's what's going to drive voting. >> could be true. you guys are assuming the worst. i think we're assuming the best. let's just take you at your word. you are right. there has been this sort of strong congressional leadership. ted cruz now apparently the speaker of the house. i don't know how he pulled that off. i thought he was in the senate. >> he's a tea party favorite freshman. he has this following in america. that's empowering. >> so i think that he believes, and i think you believe that he's actually speaking for a big chunk of the american people. do you agree with me on that? >> that's what i think. >> if that's true, why doesn't boehner let there just be an up or down vote of all the members of congress to either -- to open up the government no strings attached and let majority rule happen in the congress? if you're so confident that you represent the american people. >> what i'm saying, the whole concept behind ted cruz is he's saying we need to use whatever

leverage we have to stop obama care from being fully implemented. right now that's the c.r. >> there are two things about that that are weird. one is, at least two things about it that are weird. one is that if you're so convinced it's going to be a train wreck, then in some ways it's strange you're afraid to let it go into place. i can understand maybe you're trying to help keep people from being hurt. what's really strange about this is, you're saying you're representing the concerns of all the people. and yet if you had a vote right now in the congress, and let everybody vote their conscience, the people who actually represent america, the shutdown would be over tomorrow, there would be a clean c.r. and obama care would go on with bipartisan support right now. >> if they voted on obama care right now it would get defeated. >> if you believe you represent the american people. >> on obama care. >> you've done that 40 times. you had a vote on obama care 40 times and you've lost 40 times. [ overlapping speakers ] >> help me make this point. >> the majority of votes for congress were cast for democrats. the majority in the house of

representatives -- >> house does that work? >> we had 1 million more votes. >> there were 1 million more votes cast for democrats in the house than republicans. that doesn't represent the majority. [ overlapping speakers ] >> i don't think it reflects the majority of americans. it reflects a rigged math. >> correct me if i'm putting words in your mouth, but i think what emily is saying is that what ted cruz is doing is standing up for millions of people around the country, certainly in his district back at home, who want obama care repealed, delayed, stopped. that is not represented in congress. that's why ted cruz -- >> how is that the not represented in congress? >> there are so many sort of flip-floppers and weak lings in the house. [ overlapping speakers ] >> who don't have the backbone that ted cruz does. >> ted cruz is supported by a small faction of the american people. he doesn't actually get to attach everything that he wants to pick up his ball and go home.

he represents americans. i totally accept that. >> you just saw a majority of the house five times in the past two weeks, a joert of the house of representatives passed bills that either defunded, delayed obama care, stopped the medical device tax five different times. members of congress. there's enormous majority support in congress plus all the senators who vote for it, republican senators, majority of the house. >> then why are you afraid of a vote on the house floor up or down about the no strings attached? why are you afraid? >> there's no fear. the point is there's no leverage left. >> you don't believe -- here's the thing. you say you're a majority movement but don't believe in majority rule in the house of representatives. why is that? why can't you have a clean vote, let everybody if you're a democrat, republican. pass a bipartisan support and the government would open up. >> why would they give up their leverage? >> because they believe it democracy maybe, i don't know. >> because they believe it democracy and getting things

done. >> do you know how nancy pelosi shoved that 5,000 pages in the middle of the night of obama care? >> middle of the night? trust me there were a lot of nights. >> for instance, what would you do? senator dick durbin and joe manchin have both suggested they would compromise on certain parts of obama care. dick durbin wants to repeal the medical device tax. he's okay with that. joe manchin said he would delay the individual mandate. where's that kind of compromise from the plurality of democrats? >> well, if they want to do that we can do that. the c.r. -- that's not what a c.r. is. this is a six-week extension to get the government running. there's nothing that limits your ability to continue to negotiate this thing. >> eutopian world where they're separated. they are not separated. >> senator cruz who wouldn't let there be a budget conference. that's how the adults in the room come together. >> no. >> you can actually agree to o y legislate these things. i think the device tax is an

interesting one. it represents more of the bipartisan special interests connection than everything else. leaving that aside that's unfortunately where the parties tend to come together. this is a c.r. it has bipartisan support. it would pass the house and we could continue to function. >> republicans say here's a handful of things we want. the president says we'll get to that but first do all the things i'm asking you to do. then i promise on good faith because i've been so trustworthy before we'll get to all your things and i'll come to the table and i'll negotiate with you like i did on entitlement reform and tax reform. why would they take away their leverage? >> democrats think it should be at 1056 or much higher. they gave the republicans everything that a c.r. is supposed to have 100% of the republican number. where do you keep negotiating? >> let's just clarify a couch things. on the conference committee, the house passed a bill that said yesterday, let's just go to conference committee. let's do regular order. we have passed this. here's our bill. the senate bill has just the clean c.r. that you like.

house bill has a delay of one year of the individual mandate with the c.r. let's put them together, go to conference committee. what happened? harry reid said absolutely not. they voted it down and it went away. we won't negotiate. we won't talk. >> talking about the real budget. there was a chance for a conference on the real budget. that's how congress is really supposed to work. [ overlapping speakers ] >> the house passed the budget and the senate passed a budget. >> in the divided government we've all seen the past two years, there is zero chance these people are working together. let's be realistic here on a budget. they wouldn't even go to conference on the budget. >> speaking of working let me ask you guys a question in the minute that we have left. should these congresspeople get paid in the middle of all this? you. >> probably not. i mean, i think we tend to focus on that sort of thing. and whether it's six weeks of pay it's not going to be a huge disincentive. most members of congress are actually worth over $1 million. i think the optics of that can seem fair but i don't think it's going to be a seismic difference one way or the other. i worry about the hundreds of thousands of federal workers out

there this is going to mean a lot to the way they they their bills this month fur loloughed of time that's a big impact. >> when this all gets resolved which up it will be and everybody will win a little bit of something, everybody will get paid in full. so everything else is just for show. >> we'll see about that. there have been some noises they may not. but listen i want to thank tom perielo and emily miller. next we are going to ceasefire. >> are we? >> i don't know. we're going to see if we can ceasefire, see if there's anything we can agree on. i think there's one thing and it has to do with what's really going on at that world war ii memorial. [ female announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain

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tonight on "crossfire" we've been debating the government shutdown. now let's call a ceasefire and see if there's anything we can agree on. i think one thing we can agree on is what's going on with that world war ii memorial is a bit of a travesty. i do think they should remove the barricades. but honestly from my point of view, this is not the worst thing we're going to veterans in america. we should have a much bigger conversation. >> i think that's a really really smart fair point. i agree. i think the left is demagoguing this a little bit. i don't know why there are barricades in an open air monument. it makes no sense. they weren't there in 1995. i'm sure some republicans are demagoguing on it, too. it's a big distraction. it's not really the heart of this fight. >> i agree. if you want to be a part ofs